I kicked off this Sabbath by eating my first soup of the fall season.
It’s been a year since I’ve made Tortilla soup, so it was especially
tasty! I enjoy cooking much more in the fall and winter time.
upcoming birthday. She loves big parties with lots of people because
she is such a social bug! I wanted to be able to give that to her on
her special day. It seemed like I just couldn’t find a day and time,
other than during Sabbath, when everyone could come to her party. After I stopped trying to figure out the solution, my husband came up
with one. We are going to have it on a Saturday evening from 6:30-8
p.m. We will have minimal preparation and be able to take care of
things before Sabbath starts. I realize I have a long way to go in practicing surrendering my wants
and desires for God’s best. It is more important that I show my
daughter that we don’t compromise when it comes to what God wants from
us. One of my readers reminded me of that this past week. Deborah
shared about difficult decisions she and her family have had to make
in order to keep Sabbath holy. I hope that I can be as strong and
consistent for my children. Thank you to those who set that example
for me! This Sabbath had a sense of change about it. Not only was there a
time-change, but I felt a bit of a heart change. It has been
uncomfortable and scary for me to make the changes that my family has
made over the past eleven weeks. I’ve faced the unknown and felt
lonely at times. Meeting all of you through my blog has been a huge support in knowing
I am not alone. But somehow, this weekend, I began to feel ready to
step out more in faith like Abraham (although I am quite far from
having his faith in God). The truth is that my family doesn’t know
where we are going right now (what church we will attend, or even
where we will live), but we know God is leading us somewhere. I have
to trust that it will result in God’s glory. I have a growing desire to be a part of a group of God’s followers who
are alive in truth. I’m tired of settling for mediocre and I
certainly don’t want that for my children. It has a sense of
emptiness about it. I was thinking about some theology that is popular these days and how
it doesn’t add up with my life. I constantly hear in the Christian
world that I should feel free, being completely under grace. And I
don’t have to worry about doing ANYTHING in my Christian walk to
please God. This theology is true IF we are free to sin. Then I
certainly wouldn’t have any restraints to worry about and find myself
very free to sin in any way as much as I like. If God didn’t tell me
what sin is, how can I know? If I weren’t suppose to keep Sabbath, why did I feel such a pressing
from the Holy Spirit to do so? Why did I have a lack of contentment
and peace when I wasn’t keeping Sabbath? Why do I have a growing
understanding of God’s Word and a better relationship with God and my
family now that I am keeping Sabbath? Ok, enough of that.
This week on my facebook site, a lady named Robin shared with me about a video her pastor made about Sabbath. My husband and I watched it
and were impressed by his clarity and thoroughness. Where I have
struggled to share Sabbath with others, this man does with ease. He
explains in depth, through Scripture, many of the questions and
arguments that people have. It is a bit long, but well worth
watching! Thank you, Robin! Here is the link to the video: In this video, he talks about getting to a point in our lives where we
see God’s blessing because of our obedience to Him and others see this
Light and ask us about it. He says that, “Faith is what is required
to make the truth come alive.” This week, let’s try to live in FAITH and walk in TRUTH. Please let
me know how your journey is going! Until next week,
Lisa G.
Jim Staley is a false teacher. He is proof-texting and misusing God’s word. Read the books of John, Romans, Galatians, Colossians, & Hebrews and ask God to show you what is true. Check out this blog posts on the false teaching of the Hebrew Roots Movement: http://joyfullygrowingingrace.wordpress.com/2009/04/03/hebrew-roots-movement-…http://joyfullygrowingingrace.wordpress.com/2011/01/26/identifying-false-teac…Our natural inclination is to do things to please God. However, it never worked for the Israelites, and it doesn’t work today. It feels unnatural to rest in Christ alone who bore our punishment and credits us with His perfectness for free (Romans 3-4). But this is our only hope.
I believe that because Jesus loved me SO much that He died that horribly cruel death on the cross, that the least I can do in return is to love Him back in doing the things He has asked me to do. And keeping the Sabbath is only one of those things. It all depends on WHY you do what you do. You don’t keep the commandments to be saved, you are saved by His blood. You keep them because He is living in you and Jesus in you causes you to want to please Him in every way you can. The more we know Him, the more we become like Him. Or, the closer we are to Him the more we become like Him. I think it feels VERY natural to rest in Him. I love the Sabbath with all my heart, its a time to spend all day thinking about Him and what He has done for me. There is NOTHING in this world more important than that!
Dana,I am currently reading through all of those books in an effort to understand this issue about the Law even more. I must confess some of the passages are very pointed and seem to clearly make the Law out to be the bad guy. I don’t think any one is talking about salvation but rather how to please God and serve him AFTER salvation.May I bring your attention to a few verses here?Did you know that God makes a statement in Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.Notice that BOTH are necessary for the Saints.Lets rewind to the first mention of the Law in any detail. Jesus says the following – Mat 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.Are you recommending that we teach against the Law?Have you ever heard of the term “Lawlessness”?1 John 3:4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5 But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. What is sin? Law Breaking.Romans 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin. Romans 7:7What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “Do not covet.”What is Gods beating heart for His People Israel? For The LAW to be on their Hearts.Jeremiah 31:33 “This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time,” declares the LORD. “I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.New Testament Hebrews 8 reaffirms this by quoting it word for word. Gods goals is for His people is to have the Law of God in their minds and on their hearts.If I could use a little logic here. Jesus came to the Earth and in order to live a “perfect” and “sinless” life He had to live and fulfill every aspect, jot and tittle of the Law. If he broke one Law he would have been full of sin and we would be hopeless without a Savior. Isn’t our life goal to be like Jesus Christ our savior?See its been about the Law from day one. Law number one – Do not eat the fruit on the tree. Jesus came to set us free from the penalty of the Law, not the Law itself. The Law is Holy, Righteous and Good- Rom 7:12Finally, Lawlessness. Do you remember who has the spirit of Lawlessness – To be without Gods Laws? Anti-Christ2 Thessalonians 2:8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.Lawlessness = the spirit of Anti – Christ. Weird how Christians are on the wrong side of this argument. We must choose the example of Jesus Christ or Anti-Christ.
Hi again!I’m following your blog b/c I just find it amazing how God has been leading you into His truth about the Sabbath. I find your journey so real!My oldest son has his b-day in Feb. when the Sabbath ends earlier. We’ve had his b-day party on Sat. nights. If you can get a lot of the preparation done before hand, it really is easy. I hope it eases the anxiety you’ve been feeling over that situation.I have a friend who recently also feels God telling her to study His word. Since she’s like a sister to me, she asked if we could study together. I started praying right away that God would lead me to some materials that would help us go through His word together. I truly believe the Holy Spirit has led me to these:http://www.iperceive.org/There's 2 sermons on the Sabbath. The first one is entitled something like “a dying queen’s last wish” and then the one directly after it is part 2 and talks about how Sabbath was changed to Sunday. It’s a 10 part series of studies. I loved them! Maybe they’ll be a great resource for you, too.Have a blessed week!Pat
Chad, your texts are chained together inappropriately, and you’re ignoring difficult passages that don’t fit with your presuppositions. This is the M.O. of Seventh Day Adventists–they pick texts, cafeteria-style that suit their theology. I was raised a PK and have heard all their arguments.Here’s the larger picture. The Great Controversy worldview is the opposite of the Bible. For more info., see this helpful illustration: http://lifeassuranceministries.org/proclamation/2011/2/greatcontroversychart.pdfThe Sinai law, in its totality was given to reveal sin and condemn us (2 Cor. 3; Galatians 4; Hebrews 12). It holds no Good News for us. The law does not reveal God’s character as SDAs teach. Jesus is the One who reveals the Father fully and completely (Heb 1). Jesus is better than the law, and He is the New Covenant and He has new commandments that John reveals in his books:A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. (John 13:34)Do not labor for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal.” Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” 29Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” (John 6:27-29) Note: Jesus doesn’t mention the 10c.Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, lwe have confidence before God; 22 and mwhatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his commandment, othat we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us. (1 John 3:21-23). Note that the Sabbath isn’t mentioned here, either. John wrote Revelation, so we can safely assume (using careful hermeneutics) that whenever John says the word “commands” we can go back to where he defines “commands”. We don’t jump around the Bible to prove our points. SDAs *assume* that whenever “commandments” are mentioned *anywhere* in Scripture that it automatically means the 10c. This is unjustified using proper Biblical interpretation techniques.Finally, the whole point of the New Covenant, as delineated in the Gospels and Epistles, is that it is between the Father and the Son (Heb 6:13; Heb. 7:20-28; Genesis 15: Romans 4). Thus, Jesus took our place and kept the covenant with the Father that the ppl in the Sinai covenant broke. So, our salvation is sure, and the saved people WILL keep God’s commandments, like it says in Revelation. Not because they are perfect (as Ellen White teaches), but because they are clothed in the fine linen of the righteousness of Christ, who kept all the commands in our place (Rev. 19:8). He’s the One who loves through us, and we as believers have no choice but to bear fruit. Note the Bible says that believers bear fruit–NOT that they keep the 10c.In the New Covenant, believers are known for their love for one another (John 13:35), not for their 10-commandment keeping. Only being born again results in this kind of love (Romans 5:5). And being born again means turning from the law of Moses (2 Cor. 3). I know this sounds harsh, but Paul clearly states that *whenever Moses is read* a veil lies over the heart. Only in Christ is it removed.For *to this day*,when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away. Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts. But when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is *freedom*. 2 Cor. 3:14-17So, we have freedom to keep the Sabbath or not keep it as Christians (Romans 14). And the law of Moses is obsolete (Hebrews 8), so let’s stop trying to put our fellow brothers and sisters under it (Galatians 1; Colossians 2).
What bothers me is that SDAs and the Hebrew Roots groups spend so much time debating about rituals and which ‘laws’ apply to us today, trying to convince Christians that they’re wrong.What if we re-allocated these precious resources to understanding how we can open up dialogue with people in our relativistic culture re: why Jesus is God and how they can have salvation in Him alone? In my upbringing, I knew all about how to defend the Sabbath against ‘critics’, but not how to defend Jesus against His critics.—So much focus on the details of the law. —So little focus on Christ, Who fulfilled the law and saved us while we were running away from Him.IMV, something is SO wrong with this picture.
Dana,I respect your views. To clarify… Im Southern Baptist
…….Surprise!!Let me ask you this… Is having sex with a person not your spouse wrong? If you answered yes then you are living under a Law. Right?The real crux of everything is this. Whoever makes up your Law is your God. That is truth because whoever makes up the rules you live by controls you.Who is your God?God/Jesus?Paul?New Testament?Government?Social Pressure?Pastor?Society?News?Or Yourself?Whoever makes up the rules for our lives is our God, so If Jesus came to destroy Gods Law then we worship a false Christ. But if God never changes then he still wants us to follow HIS ways.Example:Pork – One of the worlds most unhealthy meats – Scientific factShrimp – High in mercury – UnhealthySleeping with your Mother – SinOnly one GodKeep a day set aside to only think about GodDo not LieDo not stealHonor your Mother and FatherALL OF THESE ARE FREEDOM!!! GOD CAME TO GIVE US FREEDOM IF WE WILL JUST OBEY. Jesus came to give us freedom from the penalty of the Law but if we obey the Law, The Law becomes a close loving friend to tell us how to please God and protect ourselves from sin once we have accepted Jesus as our savior. Who makes up the rules in your life? Whats funny is when we go to a ball game… every body gets upset when someone breaks a rule… not when everyone keeps them.Same with a cop… seems like He is always getting upset when someone breaks a rule… Not when we keep them.Where are the worst places to live? The places that don’t obey rules.Rules are a good thing, EVERYWHERE you go. They bring order and stability and comfort and care and unity and joy to those that follow the rules. You are living by rules also.Do you cheat on your spouse?Who decides that rule? Your Spouse or God?Do you steal?Who decides why you don’t steal.If you say you live by NEW TESTAMENT rules then you have put your self under the NEW TESTAMENT LAW. So you are under a LAW? So you are teaching people to obey a NEW set of rules but aren’t you still preaching LAW. Just less of it?Seriously, If you tell someone that something is SIN and WRONG then you are imposing a set of rules. Is anything wrong anymore? Is ANYTHING Sin?Lets talk about a imaginary friend for a second, Lets say your friend is cheating on his wife. So the minute you tell your friend to stop cheating on his wife then you have picked up the LAW and now you have “enslaved” your friend according to your line of belief and yet I would think you were trying to set him free.When the Doctor comes in after a patient has a heart attack and says to a man, I encourage you to cut your pork and bacon because its not good for your heart. Is he enslaving him or freeing him? The doctor is God in his life if he obeys the rules.(Im not saying Doctors order are bad.) I am saying that it seems to be ok for common sense to tell us these things are wrong or for society to tell us they are wrong but if GOD tells us their wrong then its evil.Good rules from a Good God is FREEDOM!We all live by some sort of rules, Even demons live by rules of conduct and authority but the difference is WHO makes up the rules because whoever makes the rules up is God in our lives.Who is making up the rules you live your life by? You?
Hi Chadrick,You believe yourself to be a Southern Baptist; but IMV, your beliefs and hermeneutic technique are more in line with Hebrew Roots, Judaism, and SDA than Christianity. There is no such thing as being under a New Testament law. Because the Holy Spirit inhabits believers, we bear fruit. It will occur when a person is born again. We don’t follow rules, rituals, or formulas to make it happen. Jesus is truth, and He is all we need. This is the theme interwoven through the whole Bible.I noticed that your latest reply has no Scripture attached to it. Mine is peppered with Scriptures, in their proper contexts (to my knowledge). You have addressed none of the Biblical passages that I’ve raised that directly contradict your point of view.The Spirit Who lives in us as believers supernaturally directs our behavior. Colossians and 2 Cor. 3 are clear that the Old Covenant laws are obsolete and the new commandment is to believe in Christ and love one another. This occurs supernaturally when we’re born again. So no, I will not commit adultery with the Spirit living in me because this does not demonstrate love. If I do slip up and behave unlovingly to those around me (and who doesn’t mess up every now and then?), it will feel very unnatural for me bc it’s not in harmony with my new nature. Sin will NOT be comfortable as someone who is knit closely to Jesus (Romans 7). Just because there is no law against adultery or stealing, doesn’t mean Christians are itching to go do it. In fact, what do you do with Paul’s analysis in Romans 7 about the law CREATING and INCITING sin? He uses one of the 10c as an example–the coveting one.In contrast, Christians are supernaturally transformed from the inside out by the Spirit, not the law. The law is powerless to change behavior (Romans 8). The Spirit is infinitely more powerful than the 10c. The 10c reflect a very low level of morality anyway. They say nothing of the motivations of the heart.Do you rely on rules to change your life or the radical transformation of Christ Himself living in you? Good luck with all those OT rules! They were a burden in the Israelites’ day (Acts 15:10), and I’m sure they’d be even more of a burden today. I know I would be so busy trying to keep them all correctly, that walking with Jesus and enjoying Him would be lost in the whole enterprise.And as far as the dietary laws–no one will argue with the idea that feedlot animals are not healthy. However, the evidence has been piling up for decades that it is wheat that is to blame for diabetes, heart disease, and obesity—not pork or other kinds of meat: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CCcQFjAB&…http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/against-the-grain-how-wheat-wrecks-your-healt…
Im glad you mentioned Romans 7Have you EVER read what it says?Is the LAW sinful? vs 7 How do we know sin? vs 7Do you understand that if God had never set down the LAW to Adam – Do not eat of the tree. Adam couldn’t have disobeyed and sinned. It wasnt the LAW that was bad it was our disobediencePlease read: Romans 7:7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.”[b] 8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. 9 Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. Please note what Paul thinks about the LAWVs 7: “Is the law sinful? Certainly not!”Vs 7: “I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law.”Vs 9: We would not be able to experience sin if their were no rules. So if there was no law their would be no condemnation or reason to go to Hell. It is because of our disobedience to the LAW that we sin. It is not the LAW’s fault we disobeyed. It just shows us what sin is. Vs 10: I found the very commandments that (God) intended to bring life actually brought death. Why did it bring death? When God said to Adam “Dont Eat the fruit” did that give death to Adam? No but it was disobedience of the LAW that produced Sin. This is not me talking but Rather Paul in Romans 5:12-20Adam didn’t commit sin because of the LAW it was because of his disobedience.VS 12 – THE LAW IS HOLY AND THE COMMANDMENT IS HOLY, RIGHTEOUS AND GOODSo how can the LAW be bad if it is HOLY RIGHTEOUS AND GOOD? It is our disobedience that is sending us to Hell. We must accept Jesus to save us from our LAW breaking ways and then strive to follow the LAW as Jesus did because the LAW shows us what sin is and it is HOLY, RIGHTEOUS AND GOOD. Why do you teach that the LAW is evil and sin? It is our disobedience of the LAW that is evil and sin.
Hi Chad,The Law(Genesis-Deuteronomy) is indeed “Holy, Rightious and Good”, otherwise it wouldn’t still be in the Bible. I still read the Law, but from a New Covenant perspective under Jesus Christ. I am curious, how do you decide which of the 613 Commandments have authority over you? I am referring to the 613 Commandments wriiten in the Book of the Law(Gen-Deut).
I never said or implied that the law was sinful. Just because it is holy does not mean it applies to us who are justified in Christ. It also does not mean that the law brings us any good news or hope whatsoever. It is holy because it imposes an impossible standard for * unbelievers* and causes us all to flee to the arms of Jesus, our only Hope, for safety. Striving to keep the law like Jesus did is the opposite of the Gospel. (2 Cor. 3). “Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully, 9 understanding this, that the slaw is *not laid down for the just* but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, 10 the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers,2 liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to tsound3 doctrine, 11 in accordance with uthe gospel of the glory of vthe blessed God wwith which I have been entrusted.” 1 Timothy 1:8-11In Christ, we are justified. I request that we all stop listening to teachers who are using the law wrongfully (i.e., as a standard of behavior for believers).It is not law that teaches believers to behave rightly, but grace:For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age. Titus 2:11-12
I agree.. Chad’s not Southern Baptist! I’ve been part of Baptist churches for 10 years since leaving the SDA church, and there is no way he is one! I agree – he sounds SDA to me as well…
Chad, you said, “Keep a day set aside to only think about God.” Does it matter which day, or is it important only that people observe one in seven? Do you believe that it has to be the seventh day?
Bonnie wrote, “The more we know Him, the more we become like Him. Or, the closer we are to Him the more we become like Him.” We can learn so much about Jesus by His miracles and activities recorded in the book of John. Jesus was not one to wait till the sun set on the Sabbath day to do what needed to be done so that others might believe in Him. He was often accused of breaking the Sabbath laws. I will continue to choose to be like Jesus, prayerfully growing more like Him in my love for the Father and for my fellow man. I need not be concerned about “Sabbath-keeping” as that term in itself implies work and not rest in the Lord.
Lisa, great video post by Jim Staley — sound Biblical teaching. Chad — great answers. One thing that most Christians don’t know is that the “New Testament” definition of sin is, get this, transgression of the Torah (1 John 3:4)! If the Messiah said that he has come to call sinners to repentance (Luke 5:32), sinners are to repent from sinning…..again, to repent of “violating the Torah,” i.e. violating YHWH’s instructions. What many Christians inadvertently teach is that there is really no such thing as sin anymore, since YHWH’s instructions (Torah) contained in His Word are abolished, null, void and of no effect. Yet, the Apostle John still thought there was such a thing as sin!! And, further, believers are to repent of doing sin. Is it John against Paul, or have most Christians been misunderstanding a lot of what Paul wrote? What many people understand about Jesus/Yeshua’s Sabbath observance don’t know their history very well. They don’t know, for example, that there was more than one “school” of Pharisees — one far more severe than the other — one (the school of Hillel) held that saving a life and healing on the Sabbath was of a greater weight than resting on Sabbath. The more severe group, the school of Shammai, held that Sabbath was of a greater weight than healing. So, the school of Shammai would have held that Jesus/Yeshua’s healing on Sabbath would break Sabbath, but the school of Hillel would have allowed healing on Sabbath. Perhaps those who are currently teaching against resting on YHWH’s Sabbath might consider whether or not they fit the Biblical description of “least in the Kingdom” (Matthew 5:17-19). I might also suggest finding out what the Messiah meant by “Sabbath” in Matthew 24:20, why He commanded people to pray that their flight not occur on that day, and if the events of Matthew 24 have all come to pass or if there are still prophetic events in Matthew 24 that still await fulfillment, e.g. a “great tribulation” (Matthew 24:21). blessings, Wayne
Stu, Welcome to the discussion.In regard to your question, I would answer as Jesus did in Matthew 5: 17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. To sum up my response to Stu:If anyone sets aside the least of these command and teaches others accordingly will be the least in the kingdom of heaven. Which command would you take out?Dana,The Law is for the Lawless as per 1 Timothy. So if you have set aside the Law, wouldn’t that be sheer definition make you Lawless and therefor in need of the Law? So you cant set the law aside without becoming everything on the list. On the other hand if you are not doing anything on the list in 1 timothy then you are following the Law. How can you throw out the very thing that we are to be following? If sin is breaking the Law then how do you set aside the Law and use your “freedom” as a licenses to sin (break the Law) Either we are following the Law in an effort to NOT sin or we are sinning. Sherry, WelcomeYes I grew up independent Baptist for 24 years and Southern baptist for 12 years and have been full time staff on a Southern Baptist Church for 7 years. I’m not saying I don’t agree with Jewish Believers but yes I am Southern Baptist. You would be amazed how many baptist believe like I have expressed here. Not everyone for sure but I would say 25% of the baptist I talk to are shocked at the thought that the Law didn’t apply today. Have you considered how hard Paul tried to convince the church He was a Law follower. In fact they confronted him with the very question you pose to me.Paul – Never offended in one Law according to his testimony Acts 21:17-26 so either Paul is a hypocrite or we have misunderstood him.Acts 15:19-21 where Paul is apart of a ruling about the Law and Gentiles. Have you read this chapter? The judgement from James was as following – Teach them 4 laws immediatley1. abstain from food polluted by idols, 2. from sexual immorality, 3.from the meat of strangled animals 4. and from bloodWhy? because it would prevent the next judgment ” For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath”These 4 things would have defiled (Ive been told by Jews) any believer in the Synagogues and wouldn’t be allowed in the synagogues. So James says – Get them obeying the Law enough to get into the synagogues and then they can learn the Law of Moses like everyone else on Sabbath.Paul went to Jerusalem in Acts 15:1 with the complaint that Circumcision is not necessary for salvation and we all agree it is faith in Jesus Christ alone. But here is the interesting thing. The entire church and Paul agreed that 4 commandments was absolutely necessary to teach new Gentiles and then they taught the Gentiles to get into the Synagogues ON SABBATH to learn the rest of the Law Of Moses.Why would Paul and the Church of Jerusalem be teaching that if the Law was done away with?Here Paul again makes an amazing statement:”For I delight in the law of God after the inward man; but I see another law in my members warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.” —Romans 7:22-25What LAW did Paul Hate? The Law of sin or the draw of the flesh to break the LAW of God.If the Law is Holy Righteous and Good and shows us sin then in order for us NOT to sin we must follow the Law with the power of Jesus Christ. According to Paul, The LAW shows us what sin is.Do you want to live a life of sin? What shows us AS Christians what sin is?
Zechariah 14, have you sacrificed an animal lately to atone for your sin? If not, then you have transgressed the Torah. According to your interpretation of 1 John 3:4, you’d better work on getting rid of that sin. Just don’t come near my pet bird. He’s off limits as far as sacrifices go
Dana- Exchanging opinions and scripture is one thing, but mocking someone for their beliefs is uncalled for. Please do not post on this site again or you will be banned. Thank you.
Any perceived mocking aside, I’d like to know the answer to Dana’s question….Would an answer to the first three lines be a reasonable request?
I don’t mind being mocked for standing up for the Truth. The way Messiah answered questions was to ask his questioner a question so that the questioner could answer their own question. (Of course, that is the Hebraic way of teaching — if you answer the question for yourself, you’ll believe the answer rather than if you are provided an answer, you think of argument against it). There are certainly many questions that could be asked, but here is one: How were Daniel’s sins atoned?
Thanks for your reply Chad. Even though I have different opinions on scripture, I am glad I can see your obvious heart of obedience to God. I also am 100% committed to God and serving Him through Jesus Christ. You said, //If anyone sets aside the least of these command and teaches others accordingly will be the least in the kingdom of heaven. Which command would you take out?//Well, the Book of the Law has 613 Commandments, and all these make up the Law as described in Matt.5:17. It is quite fascinating to read God’s Law for the Israelites given through Moses. It shows how God dealt with humanity before they were introduced to Jesus. God expressed the best possible portrayal of morality within that context. God used the Book of the Law to make sure his chosen people would become aware of their sinful condition and their need for forgiveness. Many commands were symbolic in nature. I find some of them amusing. Eg. “Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed. Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.” (Leviticus 19:19.) I interpret this as a symbol of obedience requiring the Israelites to keep themselves separate from neighbouring nations. Obviously we are not under Israelite Law so we are not required to do these things.In the same chapter there is commands that are explicitly MORAL in nature and timeless. “Do not pervert justice; do not show partiality to the poor or favoritism to the great, but judge your neighbour fairly”(Lev.19:15) . Although technically to the letter, we are not under the Israelite Law; we can draw on these timeless moral concepts that continue in the life of Christ, the New Testament and today. Other timeless moral commands include ones like “You shall not covet” and “You shall not murder” (Ex.20:13,17).Chad, I mentioned some commandments from Leviticus, “Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed. Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.” (Leviticus 19:19. I most certainly don’t keep these commandments. Do you keep these commandments? Also Some other commandments include, ” Make tassells on the four corners of the cloak you wear…If a man is found sleeping with another mans wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die.”(Deut. 24)Here there is direct instructions on how to deal with someone who has been found to be committing adultery. Both man and woman must be put to death. This is commanded by the law. I ask you Chad in all seriosness, Do you keep this commandment??
Zechariah, do you have an answer to my question? It does not appear that you do.
While Scripture says that keeping the commandments are not too difficult or out of reach (Deuteronomy 30:11-14, referenced by Paul in Romans 10:6-8, what Paul called “the word of faith which we are preaching”), no one keeps all the commandments. Some commandments are only for men. Some commandments are only for women. Some commandments are only for priests. Some commandments are only for Levites. Some commandments are only for the High Priest. Without a functioning altar, many of the commandments for the Priests and Levites cannot be kept — just like it was during the time of the exile to Babylon. During Messiah’s time in flesh on planet Earth, He consistently sided with mercy (chesed) against severity (gevurah). The question to Chad with regard to stoning someone for adultery…..Individuals do not have the authority to stone people according to the Torah of YHWH. That was always the job of the government to make that determination (people can be witnesses, but if Chad has never witnessed anyone committing adultery…) and our relationship with the government is addressed by Paul in Romans 13.
Dana, the answer to your question will come to you when you determine how Daniel’s sins were covered. How were Daniel’s sins atoned?
What about “Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed. Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.” (Leviticus 19:19.) Who is required to keep these?
“because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sin” . Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said, ‘Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me; with burnt offerings and sin offerings you were not pleased.” Heb10:4-6. Talking of the New Covenant.. “Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more. And where these have been forgiven there is no longer any sacrifice for sin.” Heb10:17,18. It seems very clear, at least to me that sacrifices were a symbol of atonement pointing to Christ…but they never accomplished atonement for peoples sins. Christ did that once for all! “Now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.”(Heb9:15) Christ is our High Priest! “For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change in the law”. Heb7:12. Jesus made atonement for Daniel’s sin when he died on the cross. Same story for every person that has ever lived or will ever live. Animal sacrifices are no longer required! It is finished. * “ For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life”. John 3:16.
Zechariah, Lisa, & Chad, I hope that you all will make a commitment to submit to the whole of Scripture, rather than picking passages, cafeteria-style, to focus on with no attention to context. Not only that, but you are urging fellow believers to also interpret Scripture in this haphazard fashion. This is exactly what Jim Staley does, and it is a mishandling of the Word of God.None of you have made an attempt to properly exegete the 2 Cor. 3, Romans 14, and Colossians 2 passages. And the attempt with Romans 7 was incomplete and out of context.Your conclusion that Torah is incumbent on Christians today falls apart b/c like Stu says, the penalty for breaking the Sabbath or committing adultery is death. How are you going to implement this practice into your lives? Jesus raised the bar even higher, saying that one wrong thought is the same as committing adultery–and again, the penalty for committing adultery is death. The Torah is pretty harsh. How far are you willing to go to be faithful to it?The Deut 30 passage does not indicate that it is possible for humans to properly keep Torah. Here’s how the NLT renders the passage:“This command I am giving you today is not too difficult for you *to understand* (some other version say “this command is not to wonderful for you”), and it is not beyond your reach. 12 It is not kept in heaven, so distant that you must ask, ‘Who will go up to heaven and bring it down so we can hear it and obey?’ 13 It is not kept beyond the sea, so far away that you must ask, ‘Who will cross the sea to bring it to us so we can hear it and obey?’ 14 No, the message is very close at hand; it is on your lips and in your heart so that you can obey it.The context clearly indicates that the standards of the law are easy to comprehend & recall, NOT easy to carry out. Herein lies the dilemma of the law that CS Lewis talks about in his book Mere Christianity. The standard is clear, and we naturally want to meet it. But we cannot. No one in the history of mankind has kept the law perfectly, except Christ, and no one will. Romans 1-3 clearly says that no one even seeks for God. We are all, by default, DEAD in transgression and sin, under His wrath with no escape. A life outside of Jesus’ grace and justification is a terribly tension-filled existence. And outside of His grace, this awful existence is what we ALL prefer. We want to keep the law ourselves. We want to prove to Him that we can do it. We all want to save ourselves and please God As the Israelites found out time and time again, it’s a losing battle.I’ll close out with a stanza from that old hymn Rock of Ages:Not the labors of my hands can fulfill thy law’s commands; could my zeal no respite know, could my tears forever flow, all for sin could not atone; thou must save, and thou alone. I pray that all of us will submit to the whole of Scripture and step out of the shadows of Torah and into the light and assurance of the Fulfillment of Torah. The law was kept on your behalf and the penalty for your sins already paid. Enjoy the freedom with grateful hearts
Stu, Thank you for your honest questions. First truth: There is NO useless commandment. Regarding fabric mixing. To mix fabric is unhealthy, Linen by itself promotes health and healing but if you mix with other fabric cancels the benefits. Mixing fabrics also causes skin irritation and many kinds of rashes and allergic reactions. Additional reading – http://zipporahsthimble.com/cs/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=52&I…Second is mixed seed: This has to do with the health of the land and the health of the harvest – I don’t have references right off hand but maybe someone else knows of some studies. God doesn’t do useless stuff. BY SAYING THEIR IS USELESS COMMANDS… AREN’T WE CALLING GOD STUPID?Finally, I think their is a misunderstanding about the core of our arguments. EVERYONE here agrees that Salvation comes by Faith ALONE in Jesus Christ. Thats the way it has been since Adam. They were looking forward by faith to Jesus and we look back. SO if that is true then we are talking about the christian walk. SO THE REAL QUESTION IS: HOW SHOULD A CHRIST FOLLOWER BEHAVE ONCE HE IS SAVED?This is the real question. Should we be breaking the Laws of God or not? Should we continue in a state of sinning after we place our faith in Jesus Christ. Please don’t mix Salvation with the daily christian walk. Salvation comes by faith in Jesus. A pleasing walk with God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit comes by following Gods ways.Bubonic plague – The Bubonic plague was caused by christian and non christian Law breakers. They allowed Rats (hence Fleas) to run through their city because of waste and trash. Many cities had open access sewage and things that were forbidden by Law. The Jews knew that rats were unclean – Got rid of them. They buried their waste and kept a clean home environment. Many communities accused the Jews of witch craft because the plague rarely hit the Jewish communities. Why? Because of Gods Amazing Laws to protect us and give us Freedom.Again, Jesus says, Matt 5:18 “For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.” You must ask yourself, Who is your Savior? Jesus or Paul? Who do you follow first Jesus or Paul? Paul was 100% in line with Jesus statement above but it helps to understand Paul if you first make Jesus your Master. Go to him First to see what HE says about Law. Then go to Paul and see what HE says in light of Jesus. In fact their is a priority in understanding Scripture1. Read Gods actual words on the subject “Where he speaks” – Most of the Books of Moses for example2. Read Jesus Words on the subject – Red Letters3. Read the Prophets4. Read the Apostles5. Read the Paul6. Read the Understudies of Apostles – LukeSee we have made Paul our First guy to go to out of Ignorance.Peter addresses this line of authority in 2 Peter 3:1 1Dear friends, this is now my second letter to you. I have written both of them as reminders to stimulate you to wholesome thinking. 2 I want you to recall the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets and the command given by our Lord and Savior through your apostles. BUT THAT SAME CHAPTER GOES ON TO SAY SOMETHING AMAZING!! UTTERLY STUNNING.15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.17Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position. 18But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.HELLO!!”His (Pauls) letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort,”Peter starts the chapter by saying to follow the Law and the Prophets, Then says people are distorting what Paul says and then ends the chapter begging the ignorant and unstable people to “not be carried away by the error of lawless men”Are you Lawless Men?Are you misunderstanding Pauls writings out of Ignorance and Unstable Bible teaching?Lawlessness is the Spirit Of Anti-Christ. We must ask ourselves, Whos side are we on? Anti-Christ or Christ?
Chad, you said: Salvation comes by faith in Jesus. A pleasing walk with God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit comes by following Gods ways. This is untrue. The following passage from Galatians 3 clearly says that we walk with Christ *after* salvation in the same manner that we came to salvation. There is no difference. “You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: *Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?* 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? 4 Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, *does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?* 6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”7 Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. 8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.” 9 So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”If you’re trying to please God by keeping the law, even after salvation, you are living under a curse.
Chad, you also said: BY SAYING THEIR IS USELESS COMMANDS… AREN’T WE CALLING GOD STUPID?This is a straw man fallacy and an unfair tactical move on your part.. No one here has said that God’s laws are useless or that He is stupid. Christians understand that all God’s laws reach their fulfillment in Christ. Otherwise, we’d still be doing animal sacrifices today.
Stu, you demonstrate some understanding in trying to answer the question: “How were Daniel’s sins atoned,” but make some rather obvious Scriptural and historical blunders in your analysis. But, I can say that you are correct in saying the blood and bulls and goats never took away sins. (Dana’s sad mocking of me points out where you two disagree on that, as Dana thinks that I need to do animal sacrifices to atone for my sin). One thing that may go unnoticed by those who have not studied the Torah of YHWH is that individual Israelites never could bring an offering for unintentional sin, sins committed in ignorance or by mistake. Those intentional sin could only be atoned once per year and then only by the High Priest…..and like all offerings since YHWH gave instructions to Moses concerning the Tabernacle, could only be done at the place of YHWH’s choosing — at the Tabernacle — whether in the Wilderness, at Shiloh or in Jerusalem where the Temples would later be built. According to Leviticus 17, if you offer sacrifices at any place else it’s as if you were making an offering to goat demons. So, because Daniel was a Torah keeper, he did not make any offerings to YHWH in Babylon. Unpopular as it is to point this out, but there is a Temple that will be built in the future (unless Ezekiel’s a false prophet) in which YHWH says He will dwell and in that Temple, there will be animal sacrifices (“the fat and the blood). Read Ezekiel 40 – 48 for the full story, but if you don’t have time, reading Ezekiel 43 and 44 should be convincing enough.Of course, we also have the example of the Apostle Paul. He took a vow in which he shaved his hair, indicating he took a Nazirite vow (see Numbers 6 for the details that that vow). The Jerusalem Council did not believe the false report about Paul (that he taught against keeping the Torah) and so sought a way to prove that “that you (Paul) yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Torah” (Acts 21:24). So, Paul could end his vow along with some others to prove that he kept Torah. Here’s what happened: Acts 21:26 (NASB) Then Paul took the men, and the next day, purifying himself along with them, went into the temple giving notice of the completion of the days of purification, until the sacrifice was offered for each one of them. If you’ve read Numbers 6, you know what “the sacrifice” means when ending a Nazirite vow. So, Paul not only kept the Torah, he was willing to make a voluntary vow and keep the commandments associated with that voluntary vow….even including bringing an animal sacrifice. So, if Paul is willing to pay for animal sacrifices for ending voluntary vows, is it possible that the rumors that Christianity largely believes about Paul is false? Regarding mixing of threads, etc. Normative Christian dogma teaches that there are two kinds of commandments — moral law and ceremonial law. What the Bible actually teaches is that there are three types of commandments: Deuteronomy 4: 45 (NKJV) These are the testimonies (edot), the statutes (chuqqim), and the judgments (mishpatim) which Moses spoke to the children of Israel after they came out of Egypt, The edot are feast days and other instructions that testify to some important spiritual truth or historical event. The word edot can be translated “testimonies” or “witnesses.“Mishpatim are the moral, ethical commandments or “judgments.””Statues” in the NKJV translation are the Chuqqim/Chuqqot. Examples: “You shall not wear a material mixed of wool and linen together” (Deuteronomy 22:10)…..and the Red Heifer — simply given without explanation “why.”The chuqqim are those commandments that are to be obeyed simply because YHWH says so. Many have come up with reasons why these commandments are good, but YHWH never gives a reason. Keeping these commandments is an example of walking by faith, not by sight — doing what YHWH said to do without trying to use human logic to find a good reason for obedience.blessings,Wayne
In Romans 7 Paul points out that the “curse of the Torah” comes not from obeying the Torah, but from disobeying it (i.e. sin). So, if you are trying to please Elohim by not obeying His instructions, you’re under a curse.
The Messiah said: “But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.” (Matthew 24:20-21, NASB) Have you ever wondered what the Messiah meant by “Sabbath” during a time period called “great tribulation”? When Messiah said “Sabbath” here, what did He mean, and has this “great tribulation “great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will” already happened?
Wow! How God must shake His head and sigh at the spectacle this is
Lisa, I love reading about your Sabbath journey. I look at my Sabbath as a weekly gift of rest and worship nothing more and nothing less. I observe it because I love Him and honor Him Its all about the relationship. Looking forward to the weekend!Happy Sabbath a day early!
I am enjoying the discussion, it is mostly respectful and very enriching. I’m a Sabbath keeper myself. I think we should be led by the Spirit but with a good dose of Scriptures (I think the two definitely work hand in hand), since the “heart is so deceitful”. Wayne, thank you for the great insights and historical background!
Leviticus 19 states the reason that God gave those statutes and all the rest of the Torah, and it was because He had delivered the Israelites from slavery in Egypt to set them apart as a holy people:__________1 Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying:2 “Speak to all the congregation of the sons of Israel and say to them, ‘You shall be holy, for I the LORD your God am holy. 3 Every one of you shall reverence his mother and his father, and you shall keep My sabbaths; I am the LORD your God. 4 Do not turn to idols or make for yourselves molten gods; I am the LORD your God.19 ‘You are to keep My statutes. You shall not breed together two kinds of your cattle; you shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed, nor wear a garment upon you of two kinds of material mixed together.36b ‘I am the LORD your God, who brought you out from the land of Egypt. 37 You shall thus observe all My statutes and all My ordinances and do them; I am the LORD.’”
Dana, There are things I really cant explain about Galatians – I’ll admit it.It would help me understand your position if you would help me understand some of the things screaming in my face that has lead me to the opposite views of what you hold.Would you explain three things to me?Matthew 5: where Jesus says not one of the least of the commandments of God will fall away and if we teach to break even the smallest commandment in the LAW will be least in the kingdom of heaven. Question 1 – Why are people that teach against the commandments called least in the kingdom of God?2nd In Galatians“Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” Why does that statement seem to contradict the entire chapter? Cursed is everyone who does not follow the Law! Or it could be said – Blessed is the person that follows the Law.Question 2 – Why does that statement seem to contradict the entire chapter?Final question – When the Anti-Christ is called Lawless, What Laws is “less” from?so to restate a little differently… What Laws are Anti-Christ not following that ticks off God?If I am to see your side of the issue. These are some of the things I cant get over to even consider your side of the argument – Please help me understand better. Chad
Chad, although I’m not Dana, I have a few thoughts on your questions.1. Here is what Matthew 5:17-18 says:“Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.”Notice that last phrase–”until all is accomplished.” I believe that all was accomplished by Jesus’ death. And His reference to the law means the whole law, not just the ten commandments. “The Law and the Prophets” was a designation for what Christians now would call the Old Testament. Jesus fulfilled all of it. If all were not yet accomplished, then the whole law would be binding, not just the ten commandments.You asked about verse 19:”Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”Based on the context, I believe that Jesus was talking about His own commandments in the Sermon on the Mount. The Pharisees WERE practicing and teaching the commandments of the law, so that can’t be what He was talking about. Jesus was calling people to a much higher standard of righteousness than that of the Pharisees and teachers of the law:”“For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.” (verse 20).Jesus then proceeded to describe His commandments, and at the end of His sermon, He said this:”Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall.”When Jesus had finished these words, the crowds were amazed at His teaching; for He was teaching them as one having authority, and not as their scribes” (Matt. 7:24-29).That conclusion makes it clear that His expectation for them was to follow His words.2. Here is what Galatians 3:10 actually says, in context:”For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, ‘CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM.’ Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, ‘THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.’ However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, ‘HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM.’ Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, ‘CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE’—in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith” (10-14).Notice that the words in all capitals are quotes from the Old Testament. Paul is saying that those who are “of the works of the Law” but fail to obey all of it are under that covenant curse from the OT that the Israelites agreed to (Deut. 27:26). He also says that no one can be justified before God by the law but only by faith and that the law is not of faith. Those statements certainly do not contradict what he says in the rest of the letter to the Galatians.I’ll have to address your third question later. I need to get some sleep.
Kristine,I chuckled as I saw you go through and make those verses say what you wanted. Until ALL be fulfilled. Part of Jesus goal was to die for our sins but it is only part of a plan. The ultimate goal of Jesus is to come back as KING and Sovereign Ruler of the earth. As far as the Law and whose Law He was talking about – It says very very clearly its the Law and the Prophets. The commands make of the sum of the Law. Plus Jesus did not have a problem with the Pharisees teaching the LAW. It was the extra burdens of their own making that was the problem as seen in Matthew 23:2-42 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.Vs 2 says they sat on Moses seat – what do we know about Moses seat? Any one that sat on the seat must read the Law. That’s it. They couldn’t comment or give opinion while on the seat. Once they stood up THEN they could talk about their own opinions. Interesting that Jesus said, Do EVERYTHING they tell you to do. – Do The LAW but don’t do what they have added to the LAWThe Pharisees were adding to the Law and Jesus had a problem with that NOT following the Law itselfIf Galatians means what you say. Please tell me which one of the 613 commandments are bad. Which commandments are a burden?Does any one that believes the law has passed realize that we are making our Lord and Savior out to be Anti-christ? Lawlessness is listed as a sin time and time again in the Old testament and New testament and is one of the KEY evidence of Anti-christ. If we have the spirit of Lawlessness we join forces with Satan himself and defy the rule of God himself. Does any one else see this?
Hi Kristine, did you know that according to Scripture all things are NOT yet accomplished? We know that because, well, that is exactly what Scripture tells us. First, notice the scenario in Matthew 5: 18 — “until heaven and earth pass away….until all things are accomplished [or fulfilled].” Can you think of any places in Scripture that mentions a new heaven and a new earth? We have several places in Scripture that speak of this. One of those places is in Revelation 21. Read Revelation 21:1-6 and you find the new heaven and new earth, New Jerusalem, Elohim dwelling among people, and no more death or pain (among other things). In the beginning of verse 6, He says: “It is done.” If you pull out your Strong’s you find that it is Greek #1096, ginomai. OK, so let’s go back to Matthew 5. The Messiah said: “…until all things are accomplished.” Back to Strong’s — what is that word for accomplished? Yes, it’s Greek #1096. So Matthew 5 speaks of the old heaven and earth passing away (which, of course, has NOT happened yet) and “until all things are ‘ginomai.” Revelation 21 tells us of the actual event of the old heaven and old earth being replaced by the new heaven and new earth, and the Alpha and Omega finally telling us: “It is ‘ginomai.’” Besides the obvious fact that this earth is still here, are there other witnesses in Scripture that testify that all is not yet accomplished? Yes, several. We can go to another one of those places that speak of a new heaven and a new earth, Isaiah 66:22-23. Here is how the King James renders this: Isaiah 66:22-23 22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.Certainly not all of humanity worships the King now — but interestingly……Sabbath makes it to “the new heavens and the new earth.”Another key indicator that all things have not been restored yet. We know this because the Messiah has not yet returned, as it is written (again, from the King James): Acts 3:20-21 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.All things have not yet been “restituted” (restored) yet, hence the Messiah remains in Heaven. (For John the Immerser’s role in this, see Matthew 17:11). blessings,Wayne
Wayne, we have to be careful not to conflate the concept of ‘atoning for sin’ (accomplished through animal sacrifices) with the concept of ‘taking away of sin’ (accomplished through Christ). These are separate notions according to Hebrews.Stu and I do not disagree. Only Jesus propitiated and took away sin. Atonement means “covering” sin, not taking it away. The sacrifices were rituals that covered the sin until Jesus came to take them away fully. More info. here: http://www.andrewfarley.org/question-9_1I know some Christians talk about His sacrifice as ‘atonement’ (and even some Bible versions render the word ‘atonement’ rather than ‘propitiation. However, what Jesus accomplished was a one-time event that propitiated God’s wrath and removed our sins forever. (See Romans and Hebrews).So, with this distinction in mind, would you consider answering my original question? If 1 John defines sin defined as breaking Torah, are you personally avoiding sin by currently conducting animal sacrifices according to the clear commands of Torah? Why or why not?
According to scripture, everything Jesus was talking about in Mat 5 has been accomplished. See Luke 24 where Jesus describes what the law and prophets testified (both on the road to Emmaus and again near the end of the chapter). See also Romans 3:21 (same wording).In the context of Mat 5 Jesus had just climbed up a mountain and was giving what sounded like a new law (almost as though He is emulating Moses here). The Pharisees, zealous for the law, were sure to be agitated by this. Jesus says He’s not there to destroy the law but to FULFILL it. No matter what it isn’t going away until He has accomplished everything. He then proceeds to use the law in its intended purpose to point out that even the Pharisees, who thought they kept the law, were really law breakers on count of their filthy hearts. That is the purpose of the law– to point out sin. As others have pointed out, this is just what Romans and Galatians say about the law. For those who want to still be under it, it is a curse instead of a blessing.In Mat 5 it is an all or nothing proposition– not the slightest bit of the 613 commands in the Torah are to go away until Jesus has accomplished everything. So, if not all is accomplished then all 613 must stand. If you really want to argue that not everything has been accomplished, then, as others have pointed out, you have a lot more to keep than just the 10C. Fortunately, scripture says that all is accomplished!
Dana, as you probably know, the Hebrew word kafar can also be accurately rendered as “reconciliation.” The real question,though, is “were Israel’s sins forgiven,” and the only Scriptural answer is “yes.” Yes, even before Messiah walked on the earth….according to Scripture. I still think you and Stu disagree — but that really is beside the point.Indeed, 1 John 3:4 clearly defines sin as breaking the Torah (the plain sense of the text — please don’t take my word for it, and it is not my private interpretation — I urge you to read it in your own Bible). One of the things wrongly taught about the Messiah is that He taught against the Sabbath. If that were the case, of course, then as a rebellious son, He could not be the Messiah of Israel. So, if Jesus/Yeshua taught against the Sabbath, He would be a spotted Lamb, and would be unworthy as the Pesach/Passover offering.What Yeshua did was teach the correct way to walk out the commandments of YHWH…..He taught us the correct precedence when there is a conflict in the commandments. For example, He taught us to circumcise our sons on the 8th day whether it was Sabbath or not. He taught us that priests and Levites work in the Temple on the Sabbath and yet are not guilty. He taught that we are to remove an ox from a ditch — i.e. show mercy even to animals — even it is on the Sabbath. The reason is not that He abolished Sabbath, but that other commandments take precedence over Sabbath. This is in contrast to the Essenes who not only would NOT rescue an ox from a ditch on Sabbath, they would not even extend a ladder to a drowning man on Sabbath.The answer to your question is the one I previously gave from Leviticus 17, and is the reason that the Torah observant exiles in Babylon did not make any offering while there. Sacrifices are to be only brought to the Tabernacle, or to the Temple. Backyard sacrifices are counted as if they were sacrifices to goat demons (Leviticus 17:7). In the absence of a sanctified altar and a functioning priesthood, no sacrifices or offerings to YHWH can be done, just as it was during the exile to Babylon. In the Temple that Ezekiel prophesied, like or or not, that changes……the priesthood is restored and the offerings are blessed by YHWH Himself. I wonder why it is that when a family begins to rest in the Creator and enjoy the blessings of Sabbath, the first response by many seems to be: “How come you’re not killing animals, too, you Lawbreaker, huh?”Wayne
Michael, please provide the date and time that heaven and earth passed away.Wayne
Micheal – Qote: That is the purpose of the law– to point out sin. As others have pointed out, this is just what Romans and Galatians say about the law. For those who want to still be under it, it is a curse instead of a blessing.Does anyone see the contradiction here? The purpose of the Law is to point out sin/wrong doing/what is bad. If the Law is Holy and Righteous and Good and the ONLY purpose is to show us what is wright and wrong. How is the LAW not to be followed?The only choice is Law or Sin, Right? There is no grey areas that Christians can stand in. They are either doing right – Law or wrong – Sin.If the Law is Holy and Righteous and Good and shows us sin then if you are not following the Law you are living in sin. Where is this wrong?You guys are blowing my mind. News flash – Sin is still bad! Sin is defying GodSin is why we are going to HellSin is Anti-Christ personifiedDo you as a christian think its ok to openly do what is wrong by doing opposite of the Law?
I might add. Sin is why we are going to Hell UNLESS we have placed our faith in Jesus Christ – Sorry
I do not need to provide a date that heaven/earth have passed away because I have provided scripture which states exactly what Jesus meant when He said “until all is accomplished”. You are getting hung up on a false premise… nowhere in the text does it say all is not accomplished while heaven and earth are still here. It is no different than if I said “I tell you, as long as heaven and earth are here, I’m not leaving the house until the laundry is done!” I finished the laundry already, but by your argument the laundry must not be done because heaven and earth are still here.Even if your point were accurate then ALL of the torah would be applicable today, which I don’t see anyone here arguing for. For any of it to pass (see previous examples) everything must have been accomplished.
Christians do not live by law, we live by the Spirit, which is better than the law. I don’t see anyone here arguing that the Holy Spirit will cause someone to sin. What I do see is inconsistency on the application of the law from those who assert that it applies to Christians. I was once there myself… I came out of that same legalistic mess and am so thankful that I have been set free!This includes things such as Sabbath days. One person thinks they apply, the other doesn’t… it is up to the individual (see Romans 14). Personally, I find that Colossians 2 says the weekly Sabbath was a shadow, the substance of which is Christ. Hebrews 3 & 4 explain how this works in that God’s creation rest never ended and we are invited to enter it by stopping working to earn salvation and instead relying on Christ alone TODAY (every day – not a specific day of the week). As such, Christ was/is the Sabbath rest for those under the new covenant. If someone, such as the author of this site, wants to keep a weekly Sabbath to honor God then that is entirely up to them and they are free to do so. I have no problem with that. It is not a requirement though. I did have a problem with the misapplication of the law and inconsistent treatment of Mat 5 though, which is why I jumped into the discussion. Experience tells me that these discussion generally lead nowhere though (I’ve been on the other side of the argument before arguing your very position and I wouldn’t have been swayed either — the veil described in 2 Cor 3:14-18 had to be taken away first). So, I’ve said my part about Mat 5 and will respectfully go now rather than promote the argument.
Michael, you are right in that arguing on pages such as these rarely softens hearts or changes a position. One thing that is clear from Scripture is that Sabbath is by all means for those from the nations that turn to the Elohim of Israel, as it is written: Isaiah 56:1-8 (CJB) Here is what ADONAI says: “Observe justice, do what is right, for my salvation is close to coming, my righteousness to being revealed.” 2 Happy is the person who does this, anyone who grasps it firmly, who keeps Shabbat and does not profane it, and keeps himself from doing any evil. 3 A foreigner joining ADONAI should not say, “ADONAI will separate me from his people”; likewise the eunuch should not say, “I am only a dried-up tree.” 4 For here is what ADONAI says: “As for the eunuchs who keep my Shabbats, who choose what pleases me and hold fast to my covenant: 5 in my house, within my walls, I will give them power and a name greater than sons and daughters; I will give him an everlasting name that will not be cut off. 6 “And the foreigners who join themselves to ADONAI to serve him, to love the name of ADONAI, and to be his workers, all who keep Shabbat and do not profane it, and hold fast to my covenant, 7 I will bring them to my holy mountain and make them joyful in my house of prayer; their burnt offerings and sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house will be called a house of prayer for all peoples.” 8 Adonai ELOHIM says, he who gathers Isra’el’s exiles: “There are yet others I will gather, besides those gathered already.”Sabbath blessings on all,Wayne
One thing to consider is that while living by the spirit….if that spirit is guiding you to break the infallible, royal Word of the King……you might not be living by the Set-Apart Spirit.
Wayne, thanks for answering my question.Are you acknowledging that you are currently in violation of Torah, which is the very definition of ‘sin’ that you provided above? If this is the case, then, why are you accusing others of not keeping God’s law when you are not doing so yourself? No, there is no temple, but that doesn’t change the fact that you are currently breaking the law.For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. James 2:10
What a great Sabbath this was!Dana, perhaps I’ve misunderstood. It sounds like in your particular religion, the worship of goat demons is considered correct and proper (since that is how you are instructing me in how *not* to sin). Is that correct? Wayne
Michael, I refer you to the words of the Alpha and the Omega (the Alef and the Tav) in Revelation 21:6. We know that “All is Accomplished” specifically when He says “All is Accomplished” (or “Done” as some translations render the Greek word ginomai here)…..and not before He says so. Since the situation today is NOT that of Revelation 21 (e.g. people still die) we can be sure that according to the very words of the First and the Last……All is not yet Accomplished.
20 bucks says Dana never watched the video. Accusing people of “prooftexting” while she does the that very thing… as if Paul has the authority to negate the Fourth Commandment.
I would love to be a participate in this blog. I have had 20 years of history in the church, home churches, bible studies, and am raising 9 children for the Lord. My wife and I are followers of the Whole bible, not just the new testament. My belief is that we have confused what the new testament is and why there was a change in the covenant. We just can’t start quoting bible verses from the new testament without understanding the foundation of the scriptures. I would say about 60 to 65 percent of the new testament is just quotes from the old testament.. And if there is one page I would ripe out of the bible it would be the blank page in between. We all need to be humble and do our best and walk in righteousness. First, I would like to pose the question of why we had a change in the covenant and needed a savior? Was there a need for a blood sacrifice. People always talk about being in the spirit and walking in the spirit, not the law. Do we understand what Jesus was. John 1:14, Jesus is the law. His spirit has always been with his children, read the Psalms. Being in the spirit does not mean you are always going to Obey God. My scripture says to Hear and Obey. The spirit should convict you when you disobey his word. But, you obviously still have a free will to choose. His law and covenants were given to anyone which wants to follow and obey his entire word. Remember Jesus says in Matthew 15:24 he came only for the lot sheep of Israel.
I wanted to say that we are alone in the beginning when we start to observe the true Sabbath of Messiash, but through His blessings, we all meet good people, through keeping the Sabbath!Dear Dana, the New Testament was never meant to replace or change the Old Testament, it was meant to add onto the existing Scriptures by Messiah in person, and the Sabbath is proof of that!You read the Scriptures through the Greeks eyes as we have all been taught from our beginning!Just as Father never changes, so does Messiah never changes, so you need to find out what Paul was speaking about, when he said that their Fathers could not even keep those commandments, it does actually say what Paul means, but it is hidden from lazy bone christians who need to be spoon fed all their lives!Peace and blessings in Mashiach Y’shua, Ben Elohim, YHVHAdre